Hello and welcome to Live like the World Is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host today, Inman Narrowan. And today we are. This is a little bit of a crossover episode with the Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness podcast. And so you're going to hear a cool little audio feature about a zine that we put out as our May feature zine. And then we're going to do a cool little interview with the author of the zine. And it's just feels like a very applicable topic to things that we talk about all the time on the show, and that is talking to rural conservatives and how it can surprisingly help your mental health, which I feel like sounds like something that would be surprising to hear, but I promise it's not and it's gonna make sense. But before we get to that, we're a proud member of the Channel Zero network of anarchist podcasts. And here's a jingle from another show on the network. Thanks so much for coming on the show today. Could you introduce yourself with your name pronouns and I guess just a little bit of background about who you are, what you do in the world? Who are you, what do you do?

Sure, yeah. So I'm Celestinus Matilda. They. Them, yeah. Who am I and what do I do? I live in rural Manitoba, so I'm like kind of north of North Dakota. I live in the Aspen Parkland bioregion. I like thinking about the world that way instead of nation states. Yeah, totally. I farm. I farm herbal medicine and garlic. And I make art. Most of my art is kind of about herbalism and mental health and self care. Printmaker, Analog. And I work as a counselor a little bit as well, like a mental health counselor. And yeah, sometimes I write things. And so I wrote this thing that we get to talk about today.

Hell yeah. And so we just listened to a little audio recording of your zine. But I'm wondering if you could, in more of your own words, just kind of tell us what is this? What is this zine and what is it about?

Yeah, well, I've been living. I grew up rural, so I lived rural like from birth to 17 or so. And then I did the city thing. I lived in Montreal and Halifax and Winnipeg and visited other places a lot and then went back to living rural like about 15 years ago. And it's just like the longer I've lived rural and interacted with my neighbors, the more I've thought about, like, I don't know, like, how to have good relationships with those people and like the, the potential for, for positive change. Like, it's, it's scary for a lot of people to move into a place where they're surrounded by people that they think they might not totally agree with, but it's also such an opportunity to like, build those relationships. And that's how you really, if your goal is to change people's minds about things, you have to build the relationship first. And so living in those places really creates a lot of opportunity for that. But the other part of it, I think is I really went through this process of going from a place of being really stressed out by people who had bad opinions about things and really upset about how oppressive the world is to like still working to change those things, but having more acceptance about it. Not, not acquiescence or giving up, but like admitting that it is how it is and making change from that place of acceptance. And yeah, that just helped my mental health a lot. So that's kind of roughly what the zine is about, I would say.

Yeah. And maybe just to, it's like, to clarify a strange point, which I feel like some people, when they see the zine title, they might go, why are people, why the world is Dying telling me that I should go talk to Nazis? And, and that's. That's not what this is about, right?

Yeah, that, that was a, like breaking down how to think about people that you disagree with and not just lumping them all in the same category, I think was a really important part of that zine. And not as a, like, not, not in order to be apologist about it, you know, like, but to totally not, you know, like to not always assume the absolute worst about everybody all the time in, if nothing else, just for your own well being. Because if you decide that everybody's a Nazi, then you live in a world full of Nazis. And that's terrifying and very stressful. And so if some of those people are actually just people who repeat things they see on Facebook and they don't think about it enough and like, they're kind of okay people, it helps to learn to recognize that and to separate that out and to know that you're not as unsafe with those people as you are with Nazis, you know?

Totally. Yeah. And I'm wondering if maybe, I think you kind of COVID this in the thinking about how and why we talk about politics section, but if you could maybe build a little image of who sort of fits into who you're suggesting people should talk, get more comfortable talking to, especially if they're living rurally.

Yeah. I mean, for one thing, it really depends on the issue. Like, one thing I've really learned because like, I, like, I learned my, my radical politics in community, right? So like I learned my leftist politics from like a community of leftists. And like, not that we're all cookie cutter identical, but like, there's a lot of learning from each other and comparing ideas and like building ideas together. And so you have sort of a cohesive set of politics as a group. Whereas when people become progressive on their own in a rural context, it looks really different. Like sometimes people will be super progressive about certain things and like comically not progressive about other things. And it's, it just depends what the issue is and it's different from one person to the next, you know, and so like every, every kind of cool person I meet in the country, I'm like, okay, what's it going to be? Like they're, they're really cool about like, you know, they care about the environment. Like that's great. But like, are they going to be racist or like, are they going to be transphobic? Like which, which going to be. Because it's always something, you know.

Totally. Yeah.

You know, like, who should you talk to? Talk to the people that you can ally with around the issue that you're currently working on. You know, like if your neighbors do care about, I don't know, like all the, there's all the chemical spraying and stuff that happens with, with industrial egg, right? So like, if some of your neighbors are opposed to that, then like build a bond based on that. Right. And like those people aren't necessarily going to agree with you about everything or vice versa. Build on the points that you can connect over. And so then once you start doing it that way and building around the issues that you want to connect about, then you can't really look at a certain demographic and be like, oh, this is the dangerous demographic, or this is the safe demographic. It really depends on the specific issue.

Totally. Yeah. So I wanted to come back to this later, but I think it's actually a great spot for it now and that is to talk about safety because I feel like a lot of people, I feel like a lot of people avoid interaction or avoid interacting with certain people out of the desire to be safe. But I feel like sometimes that gets in our way a little bit too, which I'm not suggesting that anyone go do something that feels unsafe to them. But I am wondering how in these situations, how do you discern or define like what safety is and is there, is there kind of like a tension or negotiation with that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. So the first thing that I would say about that is, like, it's important to discern between discomfort and. Or comfort and safety, I guess. Like, if somebody, like, I'm. I'm white, so, like, if somebody says something racist around me, I don't like that. Like, it's uncomfortable. But, like, that doesn't make me unsafe, you know? And so I think that doing the work of, like, noticing those feelings and like, taking a good look at them and what they are can help because then you don't have to feel unsafe in situations where there isn't a direct risk to you personally, you know, which increases your capacity to deal with that situation effectively if your nervous system is more chilled out. But there's, there's the, there's the cliche about, like, the country being more dangerous, for example, if you're like, queer or trans. And, like, I don't feel like that is as true as people think it is. Like, I think there's. There's kind of the story we have that, like, if you grow up queer or trans in a small town, you, like, move to the city to, like, come out because that's safer. And like, it's safer because you're in a community of peers and like, you're in a community of people you trust. But there's still lots of people in the city that you move to who are, like, not going to be kind to you and who are homophobic or transphobic. And so those people are everywhere, you know, And I think at the end of the day, relationship matters a lot more than anything else. If you grew up in a small town and I have a friend who went through this exact thing. She. She grew up in a town of like 3,000 people. She. She was like on the hockey team and like the fire crew, like all of the, like, hyper masculine, like, where all the dudes hang out, you know? And then one day she's like, hey, guys, I'm like, not a guy, actually, and just like, you know, let them know they had no idea what to do because it was like a totally new thing for them. And, like, it was super awkward. But then like 10 minutes later, they, like, they all start texting her and they're like, we fucking love you, bud. Like, we don't care. It's all good, you know? So, like, the relationship is stronger than these, like. Yeah, it's like heartwarming, right? Yeah, yeah, but the relationship is stronger than, like, these, these biases that people pick up, you know, and it goes back to discerning between like, are we talking about like a hardened white supremacist or a hardened transphobe or just somebody who sees stuff on Facebook and doesn't think about it very much and shares it, you know, and like what happens when you throw them in a room with the person that that post is about, you know? So yeah, and there is a lot of like, like yeah, yeah. And the other thing I would really say about gender is never underestimate the power of people to ignore things that they don't want to deal with. Like when I lived in the town near me. Totally. It's amazing. It's epic. Like I lived with my partner at the time and we were both non binary and like we were both the like just gender blurriest people ever. Like half my head is shaved and like my partner at the time is like wearing a lot of pink and floral and like just a ton of jewelry and like. And like anybody who didn't want to deal with that would just assume that we were just like a totally normal straight CIS couple and. And it's like, is wild, you know, and so like totally. Yeah, it would, it would be better if they were like, hey, we see you, we care about making you feel welcome. But like if they're just ignoring the existence of like gender diversity, like that's at least like pretty easy to deal with, you know, it's. It's not again, like it's not unsafe. It's like kind of funny and weird that they're managing to do that so effectively. But like it's not dangerous, you know?

Totally. And I feel like the assumptive thing of rural spaces are less safe for queer people or less safe for this thing. It's like it really presumes to erase a lot of things that are present in those spaces. Which is also something that bothers me, I think. Radical or going to call it progressive. Well, progressive and radical, like thought like a lot of time like precludes or erases like things that are absolutely present, like sort of like for the sake of like going with an assumption or something. And it bothers me a lot.

Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. Oh, go ahead.

Oh no, go ahead.

I was just going to say like, it's nice to. I like the idea of being able to make the world feel safer for people just to think about it that way. I do see a lot of fear of the unknown from the left, fear from my city, friends of country stuff, rural stuff. And yeah, it is nice to get to make it feel like it's not as scary as it seems.

Yeah. What are some cool benefits that you've seen to talking to your neighbors or people in your community that are conservative? Like, what. What is. What has kind of come from that for you?

Well, I think that really understanding what they care about is important because, like, if you want to have good, productive, like, generative conversations with people, you have to understand what really matters to them and, like, why are they so worried about this thing or that thing, or so opposed to this thing or that thing. And if you can build enough of a relationship that they can, like, tell you their real vulnerabilities, like, why. Why am I really scared of whatever it is? You know, that's where there's space to, like, have honest conversations with people and kind of, like, change their minds about things. In theory. Not that that. I think if your only goal is to change people's minds, it's a little. It's not the best way to go about things. But, like, if that's part of your goal, then getting to know why people are resistant to something really helps with, like, promoting that thing and figuring out how to move it forward, you know? So there's that. Yeah, there's a lot of really great DIY culture in the country. Like, I mean, the. The people that live around me are not the, like, fancy, fancy, fancy farmers. It's like people who, like, mostly do everything themselves, you know? And, like, there's just so much know how, like, anytime anything breaks at my place, like, I, like, text one of my neighbors and I'm like, what do I do about this? You know? And, like, just lots, Lots of skills and lots of DIY skills. Not just take it to the mechanic, but here's the good way to fix it in the less good way. And here's the totally redneck way. And it's good to have access to that knowledge. And it's also people who have been here for a few generations, which is tiny in the large scheme of things, but it's enough for people to know a bit about the land and what it does. Like, I think the example I gave in the zine, I think I included this, was like, my neighbor who, like, keeps bulldozing all of the wind breaks around his fields, which is terrible. Like, he should leave them there, but he wants that extra foot of space. He keeps doing that. And he's also really into, like, roundup. Like, you know, he's like that kind of guy. But then one day he's over here. And I'm like. I'm like, I kind of want to plant my corn and beans, but, like, I don't know if it's. If it's quite time. And he's like, oh, you do that when the oak trees leaf out. Because when the oak trees leaf out, that's when the soil is warm enough for your corn and beans. Yeah. So it's like there's. There is, like. You know, just because people have some bad habits or bad opinions about things doesn't mean they don't also have, like, really cool wisdom and, like, land connection, you know? And I want to acknowledge that. I'm talking about three generations. When, like, where I grew up in Alberta, we have sometimes four or five generations, but then, like, the indigenous folks around there have, like, 400 generations of using that space. So there's. There's like, some relativity there. But, yeah, that. That wisdom was into.

Yeah, yeah. And to hearken it back to, like, like, safety a little bit, it's like, when I was living rurally, it's like, there's a lot of safety in having a good enough relationship with your neighbors, even if you, like, feel uncomfortable around them, but having a good enough relationship with them where, like, if something happens, like, if there's, like, a disaster, if there's, like, something, you know that they're probably gonna show up and help you with it. And having a good enough relationship with someone to, like, have to have that kind of safe, like, that is another form of safety, is like, having these community connections where it's like, even if I feel discomfort from someone or maybe don't, like, someone that will probably help each other out when goes really wrong.

Totally. Yeah. And I mean, community is like that, right? Like, I think that in any community, there's going to be people you get along better with and along worse with. And I think that, like, to me, getting to get to know people that I don't totally agree with and build relationships with them with them is, like, a huge gift. And it, like, makes me able to go into the world and have conversations that I don't agree with and not feel super stressed about it, because I'm used to doing that. That's like, a really a good thing to be able to do. And you're totally right. Like, even. Even though we're not currently in an active apocalypse, probably, like, there's a couple different times this winter where I got enough snow in one shot, where, like, my snowblower wasn't going to do it, and, like, somebody showed up Right away with a tractor and like, cleared it out, you know. So, like, it's really nice to. To have those connections. And I think there's one more thing I would say about safety that I've learned, which is really interesting, which is when I was more afraid of people who I didn't agree with and more anxious about interacting with them, it was hard for me to approach them in a way that made me approachable. And so there was like a dynamic. Like, I was kind of like weird and awkward and stressy and crusty and that, that like, influenced the relationship. And I've developed this skill over time and I really appreciate it, which is just being able to. To be super friendly and approachable to normal people. Even though, like half the time I just want to be alone. Like, if I, if I interact with a normal person, I've gotten really good at just being like, nice and approachable and chill and like, making it really easy. And like, that. That alone is enough to like, have good relationships with almost everybody, you know, and it took time to do that. Like, as somebody who, like, is like, you know, non binary, trans, queer, whatever, and like, also somebody who's like kind of a skid, like poor, like, you go into lots of situations, like expecting people to kind of treat you badly and it's, it's hard to overcome that and, and be like, we are just gonna have a nice interaction and like, you're gonna fucking love me. You don't even have a choice. And like. But if you can do that, it makes everything go so good, you know?

Totally. Yeah. Yeah. So sort of in the like, frame of like, why, like why and how to talk about politics or like, whatever with people. I know that you have a little anecdote about like, why and how to do that.

Yeah, yeah. When I was living in town, which the town here is like 8,000 people or something, I had a neighbor. I'll call her Carol. I don't think she's ever going to listen to this podcast, but we'll call her Carol. And she was like your classic kind of like crusty, opinionated, like, very racist, little old white lady. And so I did this thing with her where I didn't push hard on that for quite a long time. Like, sometimes I'd ask questions. Like, one time I think she said something about them. Like, you gotta watch because, because sometimes they do this. And I was like, who's they? She was talking about indigenous people. Right. So I would, I would ask questions a bit. I would, I would sort of like just Little nudges. But I, we built a relationship and we got to the point where we could just, like, say each other to things. And then one day she was complaining about a mutual friend not, not visiting her anymore. Mutual friend is indigenous. And I'm. And I said this like I was joking. It's very important if you, like, stick it to people. If you can do it a little bit, like you're joking, it helps a lot. So I was like, oh, I don't know, Carol. Maybe that's because of all the racist shit you say. And she's like, I, I, I'm allowed to. I could say whatever I want. And I'm like, yeah, and our friend can do what she wants. Like, that's just how this stuff goes. But it was really satis. Long game stuff, because at that point I'd known her for like, a few years, and I, and this was just like, finally the right place to like, to like, say it hard and like, not just kind of, like, nudge about it. And so I'm sure that other things were happening in her life besides me. But I think that over time, she did change quite a bit. Like, later on, I picked up a hitchhiker who was like a younger indigenous guy. He was like, maybe 18, and he was like a traveling kid. Like, he was like, sketchy looking. He was lovely, great, great kid. And he, like, stayed at our place for a couple days and then continued with his hitchhiking. And he went next door and like, bummed a cigarette off my neighbor. And at one point in the past, she had, like, gotten really mad at me because one of my friends borrowed, like, asked to borrow a lighter while she was on her deck. She was, like, very upset about this. And so this. And that was a white kid also. So this indigenous kid comes back to my house, and he's like, I just went next door and I met your neighbor. And I'm like, oh. I'm like, oh, how did, how did that go? And he's like, great. We had a smoke together. I bumped a smoke coffer. And I'm like, oh, geez, that is not good. And he's like, no, it was totally fine. And I'm like, really? Like, okay. So that was interesting. And then after that, she broke her leg. And this, this, like, big, tall indigenous guy was walking with her. Once she started walking and, like, going for walks together. And I assumed it was like a house care, like, home care kind of situation, but it turns out it was just her neighbor and they were like, buds. And he's like helping her out and taking her for walks. And she's like, happy with this. So, like, I don't know how. I'm sure she's not a perfect person, you know, at this point. But like, changes in people happen really slowly over lots of specific events. And like, if you rush it, it, it'll. They'll dig in their heels and you'll end up like, worse than you started almost, you know. And so, you know, there's this desire to fix it right away because there's this discomfort with seeing people act badly and there's this urgency, right, to like, try and fix it as soon as possible. But sometimes you have to kind of like build the relationship first and build trust so that the relationship can survive you telling them that this particular thing is not good or not. Right. And you can continue to have your relationship so that they can continue to care about what they've been told and not just reject it completely. So, yeah, it's, it's long, long work. And this, what's strategically effective is different sometimes from what feels easiest or best in the moment, I think.

Totally. Yeah. And it's like people, like, people are social creatures and it's like we, a lot of people do unfortunately, like, sometimes like, need like, active connection to humanize people. Like, I wish the default was that we just like empathetically humanized everyone, you know, But I, but I don't think that's how a lot of people actually work. And it's like, so people, people need that. They need to form new relationships. They need to form new connections with people to like, break them out of like, what they've assumed, you know?

Totally. And that's why, I mean, that's why talking to rural conservatives is such a powerful thing to do. Because, like, if you build those relationships, then you can give those people opportunities to rethink some of their biases and like, do work where, where it's really needed. You know, I, I talked about this in the zine, I think, but like, it's nice talking to your friends about politics. But if you all already agree about it, then like, what are you, what is your impact on the world, you know, by rehashing something that you already agree on. One of my favorite people in town is like a totally normal looking, like soccer mom, hockey mom kind of person. Her politics are pristine, like, from my perspective, but she, she seems like just your totally average suburban hockey mom. And I feel like she is one of the most powerful people in my world in terms of making change on the world because she's friends with all these other hockey moms and soccer moms, and when they say questionable things, she can push back on it because they have that relationship. And, like, when I think about the impact that she has on our community, I'm sure it's way bigger than the impact that I have by, like, talking to my friends, you know?

Yeah, totally. I want to sort of jump back to a thing, but I'm also in the realm of safety and discomfort. How so? I know a lot of people who probably would be like, oh, I want to go talk to people, but I feel like I have to, I don't know, dress down or change things about myself to go talk to people or whatever. But then I feel really uncomfortable because I'm not doing what is the comfortable thing for me. So it's like, how do we kind of, like, how do we manage being comfortable while still approachable, you know?

Yeah, this is a really good question. Like, when I moved out here, I was, like, visually a lot more of, like, a punk than I am now. But what I learned is that, like, a uniform punk is a uniform. Like all the other uniforms. A uniform is a code that communicates an identity, right? And so out here, nobody has the right language to even, like, nobody even knows what that is. And so I'd be, like, out somewhere and wearing something that, like, if I was in Montreal or Winnipeg, people would be like, that's a punk. And people would be like, so are you, like, a hippie? You know, like, they're, like, trying to figure out what I'm doing, and they just, like, don't know how to read me at all. And I actually got so annoyed at being accused of being a hippie over and over that I, like, kind of started, like, shifting the uniform because I was like, nobody understands me anyway. But you do have to think about, like, you know, even with your visuals, right? Like, it's communication. And so you're. You're using language in the form of clothing or how you present yourself to communicate something to somebody else. And if. If they don't have the language to read what you're doing, then sometimes you do have to do it differently if you want them to understand you and what you're doing, you know? And so, like, I think that sometimes that, like, you know, if. If you're trans and you want to be read as a certain gender, sometimes maybe that does mean doing the gender in a way that is really recognizable to the person that you're interacting with, which, like. Like, in rural culture, A lot of, like, rural culture is skewed to the masculine, right? So, like, women can be more masculine and get away with it and not be targeted for it, but men are expected to be more masculine also. Everything's kind of skewed to the masculine. So, like, going really hard on the feminine is going to kind of throw people, even if you're cis, Right? Because it's just culturally, it's a little different. So, like, there is. There is some of that thinking about, like, what is it that I want to communicate to this person about who I am and, like, what's going to make sense to them? And, like, maybe, like, soft feminine is going to land better and make more sense to this person than, like, super, super, super feminine. Right. And, like, is there a sweet spot in there that. That. That, like, allows you to kind of be who you are, but also be recognizable to other people so that they can understand you? You know, so there's. There's that. It's. It's complicated stuff, you know?

Totally. It is really funny how that stuff works sometimes with people, though, where it's like, I was in this many, many years ago. I was, like, in this, like, saddle shop in this rural area, and I was, like, buying leather and leather bits to make knife sheets or harnesses. I can't remember, but I was wearing a. Just. It was cold, it was winter. I was wearing, like, a, like, long, black wool trench coat and, like, a skirt. And the person at the cash register is, like, looking at me, and they're just like. Like, I see them just trying to figure out something. And then when I go and, like, check out, they're like, thanks, have a good day, ma'.

Am.

And I was like, I mean, that's not right, but, like, that's not right either, you know, Is more close. Is more close to the mark than the other thing you could have said. But I was like. It was. I was. My presentation especially then was like, I'm not a trans girl, and I'm not in any way passable. I hate even saying this word, but I know it's just a landscape. But it was very interesting to me in that moment how this person looked at me, looked for funny little markers, I'm assuming, saw skirt and went girl and was like, I'm just gonna accept that. That's true. Skirt means girl.

I don't know.

It was a funny little interaction that I kind of liked. A fun way to be seen.

Yeah. And, like, you know, it really helps to be able to have a sense of humor about it like recently a friend of mine who's also non binary went and got a haircut and they went to a new hairdresser and they didn' tell them if they wanted like a boy haircut or a girl haircut. They were like, just give me a haircut. And it was like, it was like haircut, Russian roulette. They're just like, let's see if they think I want like the, the girl haircut or the boy haircut. Just see what happens, you know.

Oh my God. Yeah.

And it was just like a fun game, you know, like rather than stressing about it and you know. But one thing I will say about like, like being weird in a rural context and like whether it's gender weird or just artsy weird or just not from here weird or whatever, like there's a lot of people who like people who are different and so like it's actually really easy to become the like cool weird friend of all the local farmers. And like if you, if you're willing to just put yourself in that category, like I'm, I am, I'm sure I am. So many people's just like weird pet. It's like that weird kid that's doing all this stuff kind of funny. And like they like to come see what I'm up to once in a while and like maybe help a little bit. So like that, that can work pretty good. Like if you can be comfortable with like not exactly being perceived correctly but like having the recognition that you're different and like people being okay with that. Like that's, that's like a pretty good landing place in a lot of ways, you know?

Totally. Yeah. I also, it's funny that you mentioned like the hip, the hippie sort of thing where it's like rural. I feel like people like non rural living people also have this like assumption that like any like anything out of the norm will be really weird to like rural people. And that's just not true. Like there's a lot of really weird, there's a lot of fucking weirdos. And I say that with love in my heart in like rural places. And like people, people are actually, I think, just really used to weirdos. And it's. We might think like, you might think like, oh yeah, I'm like, how what are people gonna make of me? Or whatever. And it's like, I promise you there's someone weirder that they already know and are very used to.

I mean the thing that's special about rural people, like if you just. Sorry. If you decide to be alternative in any way. And you live in a city, you can just join a subculture, like, you can just join like a goth subculture or a punk subculture, and then you just, like, do those things the way everybody else is doing it. Right. You can do it that way. But if you live in the country and you decide to be weird, there's no, like, other people being weird in your way. And so you end up being weird in this very unique way that you, like, carve out for yourself. And so, like, the people I know around here who are like, pretty weird, like, delightfully so, like, they've been fabricating or, like, crafting their own flavor of weirdness for, like, you know, decades. And it's like, there is nothing like it in the world. It's like, wild, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

There's. There's one thing that we could. That might be nice to hit, which kind of ties back to that Nadine Hubbs book, which is like something that I'm still kind of parsing out and that I've learned a bit, is that, like, working class people function different from like, like middle class people in terms of how they interact with people, like, culturally. And it's a lot more about action and a lot less about, like, language and words, I find. And so I see that in, like, talking to, like, rural conservatives, where when people are supportive, it's less to do with, like, making sure to use the correct language and more with, like, how they treat you, you know? And so I've learned to accept that. I've learned that, like, if people treat me in a way that feels aligned with who I am, then, like, I can, I can take that even if they're, like, not using my right pronouns. Like, they see me for who I am enough to, like, treat me in a way that feels right for me. And, like, that's great. So I have. I have like, like, you know, come out as. As like non binary to like, for example, a rancher that I work with. Because, like, we knew each other long enough that I was like, okay, I guess I'll. I'll try and explain this, you know, and basically, like, he's got some questions. People always have questions. People really need to ask about anatomy when you talk about gender, because it's just. That's just what people do, you know, like, you gotta have a little bit of a sense of humor about it. But then like, you know, after like one or two questions, then he's like, okay, well, who fucking cares? And it's like, well, yeah, Exactly. And I feel like, I feel like allyship from the left is. Is like very like, I see you and I hear you and I really care about making you comfortable. And like, thanks for explaining this. Which, like, I like that. But allyship from the right is often more just like that. It's like, well, who fucking cares? Like, that's. People can do what they want. Who cares? And it's, it's like not instinctive at first to like, take that as acceptance, but I think it is. I think if people are just like, who fucking cares about gender? People can do what they want. It's like a pretty different take from like how we usually talk about it, but like, it's not inherently oppressive when that's where people are feeling about it. You know, if people are like, don't do that, like, choose one or the other. Don't do the opposite, one or both, like, that's not good. But if people are just like, who cares about gender? Who cares what people do? It's not, it's not perfect, but it's actually like not the worst take, you know?

Totally. Yeah. And then, I don't know. In a landscape where the world is becoming quite polarized, especially as the right goes ever further Right. And more extreme. I don't know, it maybe does feel important to try to make connections and try to shift things with people who. People who like, probably aren't going to shift further right or hopefully won't shift further right, you know? I don't know. Yeah, like getting to stop people from. You got to stop people from shifting further and further and further and.

I don't know exactly. And like getting people from where they're at now to someplace that's like a little bit better, like as part of like erecting that shift. Like, and that's, you know, going back to like, what is strategically effective. Like, you're not going to go from somebody who has never heard of non binary before to somebody who like uses all the language perfectly and is like, maybe some people will make that shift instantly, but most people won't. And so you kind of have to like, give them the time to process and let them move to like a slightly less bad position and like accept that and like, maybe work from there, you know, like, that's how that change is actually going to happen.

Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Connections dispel assumptions, and having less assumptions makes everyone less antagonistic. This is my conversation.

Yeah. And that makes you safer. Like, one of my big things is like, if my neighbors get together and have a conversation about Gender. And they know that I don't do gender normally. I want at least one of them to be like, hey, but like this weird kid that lives over there, like, they're like that and like we like them. You know, they won't say that, but like, I want them to be able to, to like me and to like stick up for me if shit gets weird. And that's. That's done through relationship for sure.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's about all the time that we have today. Is there any other things that you want to say before we go? Things that we didn't get to, Tips or anything for people that you want to tell them?

Maybe there's like one last little thing I would throw in that I find really helpful, which is like when people are doing things that are problematic, if they're having like racist opinions or sexist opinions or transphobic opinions or anti immigrant, whatever. I have this narrative in my head or this like, I guess it's like a blurb in my head where I'm like, oh, this is. This. Is this kind of person doing this thing that they do. Like, they're just doing that thing that they do. And it's just like an acceptance practice. Like, not in the sense of letting them get away with it, but in the sense of like not getting super upset. Because, like, we know that conservatives have conservative opinions and like, it helps when they, when you hear those opinions happening to be like, oh, here's that thing happening in order to stay grounded and like, choose how best to navigate that situation. So that's just like, for me, a useful practice for acceptance is being like, here's that person doing that thing. Like they do, you know, totally.

Like, how do you draw a line between, like, I want to talk to this person, want to connect with them, to actually know this. Like, I've like stretched my. Like, I'm trying to. I've gone from being uncomfortable to. No, this is actually like unsafe, bad. This is an enemy. Like, I actually don't want to do this. Like, how do you, how do you discern that?

To be perfectly honest, like, thinking of all the people that I knew growing up, growing up in rural Alberta and thinking of the people that I know around here. Like, I don't know any people who are sitting on a stockpile of AKs waiting for the chance to like massacre Group X, you know? Like, I know those people exist because that stuff happens. But like, it's really, really uncommon for people to be so extreme and so violent, you know? So like, I don't I don't really have people that I absolutely, definitely, completely avoid. No matter what. I have people who I like. Like, I believe that every relationship works at. At the right distance. Right? And so for me, the question is always like, what is the distance that works best for this particular relationship? You know? Like, I have one neighbor who. He, like, he's an okay guy, but he like, showed up at my place drunk one day, like in the middle of the afternoon and was like, sort of trying to be helpful, but in a sort of like, slightly creepy way. So, like, I don't invite him over here. If he tries to invite him over, I'm like, I'm busy, you know? So, like, I kind of do that. But then if I see that guy around somewhere, I'm going to be like, hey, how you doing? You know, like, maintain a good relationship at that specific distance, you know? But I mean, I guess it's just a discernment thing, like noticing how, how comfortable you feel and again, thinking about, like, are you unsafe or are you uncomfortable? Right. Because if it's just discomfort, if it isn't something that directly affects you personally, then to me that's an opportunity to like, build a relationship with that person and like, work on having conversations about that stuff eventually, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Hell yeah. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show today. Is there anything you want to plug or there places on the Internet where you can be found that you would like to be found? I know you make zines. Do you still make zines? Do you still put zines out in the world besides this one that you've. That we're talking about? Obviously.

Yeah, I, I'm in kind of a weird place with the Internet because I actually completely quit selling things online and. And so now I pretty much just. I sell things in person at like, if you're in Manitoba, then you can find me like at. There's like a folk festival coming up and stuff. But like, I do have an, an internetless mailing list. So if you want to just get stuff I make in the mail and it's just a pay what you can thing. You just, you get on the list. I send you a thing. You send like a sliding skill cash or whatever by mail. None of it happens online. That's. That's currently the only way I'm distributing stuff other than like in person. But I do have an Instagram, so if you want to. I. I occasionally post things there and that is print shop. Yeah.

Hell yeah. And if listeners, you want to see another Cool scene that Celeste made from right here on Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. You can check out. I think it was like our third feature that we ever did in the new Rebirth iteration of Strangers, but it's called Dandelion and it's really far back in the feed. And I want to say that the Internet, the inter. The audio editing quality on that episode was great, and it probably wasn't, but there's a cool interview that you can go listen to with me and Celeste from a few years ago about their zine, Dandelion. And you can also read that scene for free on our website. Still.

Yeah, beautiful.

Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, then go talk to people. Just talk to people. See what happens. It could be cool. And also if you enjoyed this podcast, you can support it and you can support it by supporting our publisher, Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. And you can support Strangers by checking out our [email protected] where you can find cool zines we put out and other podcasts like the Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness podcast, of which this is a little bit of a crossover with. And you can also support us by checking out our [email protected] strangersinthetangled wilderness, where for a variety of tiers of support, you can get different things like access to discounts and free content on digitally. And also you can get us. You can get. And also you can get a cool zine version of the zines that we put out every month, of which you've just heard an audio feature for one of them. And you can also get us to thank or acknowledge a thing of your choosing, whether that be a plant, a person, a cool organization, a fictional concept, anything you can get us to think anything and will thank it. And we would like to thank these wonderful people, places or concepts. Thank you, Cool Zone Media. Be kind and talk to strangers. Na Eulixi and Alder Tikvah's Favorite Stick. The Waterfront Project, Nico the Kao Initiative, Groot the Dog, the Black Trowel Collective, Dolly Parton and Edgar Mallen Poe. Accordians Experimental Farm Network. Arguing about what to shout out. What were you arguing about? What was on the table? Tenebrous Press. Potatoes. Staying hydrated. Brought to you by Hannah Simone Weil. The first two chapters of the Eden Project by James Hollis. Have you read this book? No.

Should I? It sounds like you should. Eh.

The Eden Project or the Eden Project? I don't know. So one of our Patreon supporters wanted us to plug it and I haven't found anyone who's read it yet. I'm just curious. I'm not doubting that it's cool. I just don't know anything about it. And so I'm hoping to find someone one day besides this person who I could totally ask as well.

I'm curious. I really want.

Thank you. The truth that we will outlive them. The Pocono Pink Pistols. The Kiwana Socialists. The Astoria Food Pantry. The Athens People's assembly of Athens, Georgia Opticuna. TSNB Baby Acab and her three great pups Sarah Mr. Craft, your Canadian friend Mark Tiny Nonsense. The Golden Gate 26 the incredible Rennerai Alexander, Gopal. A Future for Abby, Max The Enchanted Rats of Turtle Island. Lancaster chooses Love Karen the Canadian Socialist Rifle association. The Massachusetts chapter of the Socialist Rifle Association. Farrell in West Virginia Blink Cat Shulva, Jason, Jenny and Phoebe the Cats Aiden and Yuki the dog Sunshine, Amber Ephemeral Appalachian Liberation Library Portland's Hedron Hackerspace Boldfield, Tokiered, Julia Carson, Lord Harken Community Books of Stone Mountain, Georgia Princess Miranda, Janice and Odell Ally, Paparuna, Milica, Theo, S.J. page, David, Dana, Micah, Kirk, Chris, Micaiah, Nicole and Tik for the dog and the Immortal Hoss the dog. Do you have anything you want to acknowledge today, Celeste?

My ecosystem. I'm really happy to get to be a little piece of it. I will acknowledge that.

Hell yeah. We hope everyone's doing as well as they can with everything that's going on in the world. And we'll see you next week.